Sum It Up
The Sum It Up question from this past Sunday was: Is the Forsyth County Board of Commissioners right in trying to take its fight for sectarian prayer to open its meetings to the Supreme Court?
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Yes! Unfortunately, the First Amendment is routinely misused to censor or prohibit prayer, despite the plain language of and the historical context of the First Amendment. Today's legal concept of the "separation of church and state" did not exist until the U.S. Supreme Court created such a flawed concept in 1947. The First Amendment was turned on its head then, and increasingly has been applied in ways never intended — or practiced — by the framers of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
I applaud the Forsyth County Board of Commissioners for standing up for the right of local government to do what Congress has been doing since the nation's founding — opening its sessions with uncensored prayer.
DEBORAH S. "DEB" PHILLIPS
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Yes, far right.
KAM BENFIELD
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Absolutely no! They are only trying to please some Christian supporters who have been very vocal.
As a Christian, I am so frustrated that Christians like these have become the face of Christianity when I know in my heart that they are only a small minority of Christians.
The majority of Christians are much more concerned that 1 out of 4 children in Forsyth County don't have enough to eat. All that money being spent to act like Pharisees would go a long way toward helping these children.
I want everyone to know that these are just the people who make the news. The vast majority of us are trying quietly to follow the teachings of Jesus to take care of the needy.
As Americans we must respect the rights of people of other religions not to believe as we do.
By the way, the God that I worship hears silent prayers just fine.
CYNTHIA GOUGH NANCE
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The Forsyth County Board of Commissioners is not right in taking its fight for sectarian prayer to the Supreme Court because it is predominantly Christian sectarian prayer it is fighting for. Would it be taking this stand for Hindu, Jewish or Muslim prayers? I think not. We need to be respectful of all religions, as well as cognizant of atheist beliefs. Prayer of any sort does not belong in government. It is my understanding that this is what separation of church and state is all about. Apparently our misguided commissioners don't understand this.
SUZANNE CARROLL
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American democracy has endured at least in part because it has guaranteed its citizens freedom of religion. Its citizens are able to profess any faith they choose without the approval or interference of government. When any official body starts to involve itself in religious rituals or preferences, our fundamental freedom is in danger. Forsyth County commissioners have no business trying to enforce prayer on its citizens.
That there is any possibility that public tax money could be wasted to this end is an absolute wrong. Have a moment of silence before a meeting if you must, but don't tell me to whom it should be directed.
HAYES McNEILL
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Is the Forsyth County Board of Commissioners right in trying to take its fight for sectarian prayer to open its meetings to the Supreme Court?
Absolutely not! It's a waste of time and money.
PAT EISENACH
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No, this fight is not right. This embarrassing issue with our elected county commissioners is getting old. Elected folks should abide by the laws (whether local, state or federal) they were elected to enforce, not pick and choose to suit their religious or personal needs. If they wish to pray, let them find an empty office before board meetings, form a circle, join hands and pray to their hearts' content. Better yet, each should lock his or her office door and pray alone. Why?
I believe the Bible said (paraphasing here) that if you preach on a corner, i.e. in a public government meeting, then your reward will be people hearing you. Better to pray in a closet, where your reward will be God hearing you. Enough already!
PATRICIA STOCKMEISTER
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Absolutely not! Anyone, spared from the crippling effects of pious intellectual bondage and subsequent evidential denial, can clearly see that the county commissioners fail miserably in upholding the Constitution and carrying out their civic duties!
LARRY J. SANDERS
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Absolutely not. I am involved or have been involved in six interfaith organizations in our community, and all have learned how to deliver non-sectarian prayer. I am the current head of one county-wide organization that decided at its first meeting to skip prayer, even though in writing the agenda, from my interfaith background, I had automatically included "prayer."
BOB CONN
* * * * *
Forsyth County commissioners insisting on sectarian prayer to open their meetings and taking their case to the Supreme Court must disgust God when so many of his children in our community are poor, hungry and without adequate health care.
Seems a better use of funding to care for "the least of these" than to make a big fuss over the act of praying aloud. A moment of silence would be recognized by God and not offend anyone. I cannot help but wonder if those who voted to proceed to the Supreme Court are simply vying for attention in hopes of their re-election. I question their motives.
MARY ANNECELLI
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I believe Jesus Christ said all that needs to be said. Quote: "Again, when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites, who love to pray standing in the synagogues and at the street corners, in order that they may be seen by men."
STEVE WINSTON
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Honesty with the commissioners and their ability to work together is more important than paying lawyers so that they can pray at meetings. Say a silent prayer and get on with business.
ELIZABETH R. ERVIN
* * * * *
How ridiculous to spend time and money pursuing an outcome that is already available to everyone. If you want to pray, do it. Nobody will try to stop your private silent prayer. If it goes on too long, a bystander or bysitter might think you are in a trance, and haul you off to the ER. But that can be avoided by a little self control.
ANNE PAISLEY
* * * * *
Absolutely not. Why spend time and money on this while other issues are left unhandled? Some seem to tout their religiosity while overlooking the instructions that Jesus gave about prayer in Matthew 6:6.
NAOMI J. DAVIS
The Sum It Up question from this past Sunday was: Is the Forsyth County Board of Commissioners right in trying to take its fight for sectarian prayer to open its meetings to the Supreme Court?
Yes! Unfortunately, the First Amendment is routinely misused to censor or prohibit prayer, despite the plain language of and the historical context of the First Amendment. Today's legal concept of the "separation of church and state" did not exist until the U.S. Supreme Court created such a flawed concept in 1947. The First Amendment was turned on its head then, and increasingly has been applied in ways never intended — or practiced — by the framers of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
I applaud the Forsyth County Board of Commissioners for standing up for the right of local government to do what Congress has been doing since the nation's founding — opening its sessions with uncensored prayer.
DEBORAH S. "DEB" PHILLIPS
Yes, far right.
KAM BENFIELD
Absolutely no! They are only trying to please some Christian supporters who have been very vocal.
As a Christian, I am so frustrated that Christians like these have become the face of Christianity when I know in my heart that they are only a small minority of Christians.
The majority of Christians are much more concerned that 1 out of 4 children in Forsyth County don't have enough to eat. All that money being spent to act like Pharisees would go a long way toward helping these children.
I want everyone to know that these are just the people who make the news. The vast majority of us are trying quietly to follow the teachings of Jesus to take care of the needy.
As Americans we must respect the rights of people of other religions not to believe as we do.
By the way, the God that I worship hears silent prayers just fine.
CYNTHIA GOUGH NANCE
The Forsyth County Board of Commissioners is not right in taking its fight for sectarian prayer to the Supreme Court because it is predominantly Christian sectarian prayer it is fighting for. Would it be taking this stand for Hindu, Jewish or Muslim prayers? I think not. We need to be respectful of all religions, as well as cognizant of atheist beliefs. Prayer of any sort does not belong in government. It is my understanding that this is what separation of church and state is all about. Apparently our misguided commissioners don't understand this.
SUZANNE CARROLL
American democracy has endured at least in part because it has guaranteed its citizens freedom of religion. Its citizens are able to profess any faith they choose without the approval or interference of government. When any official body starts to involve itself in religious rituals or preferences, our fundamental freedom is in danger. Forsyth County commissioners have no business trying to enforce prayer on its citizens.
That there is any possibility that public tax money could be wasted to this end is an absolute wrong. Have a moment of silence before a meeting if you must, but don't tell me to whom it should be directed.
HAYES McNEILL
Is the Forsyth County Board of Commissioners right in trying to take its fight for sectarian prayer to open its meetings to the Supreme Court?
Absolutely not! It's a waste of time and money.
PAT EISENACH
No, this fight is not right. This embarrassing issue with our elected county commissioners is getting old. Elected folks should abide by the laws (whether local, state or federal) they were elected to enforce, not pick and choose to suit their religious or personal needs. If they wish to pray, let them find an empty office before board meetings, form a circle, join hands and pray to their hearts' content. Better yet, each should lock his or her office door and pray alone. Why?
I believe the Bible said (paraphasing here) that if you preach on a corner, i.e. in a public government meeting, then your reward will be people hearing you. Better to pray in a closet, where your reward will be God hearing you. Enough already!
PATRICIA STOCKMEISTER
Absolutely not! Anyone, spared from the crippling effects of pious intellectual bondage and subsequent evidential denial, can clearly see that the county commissioners fail miserably in upholding the Constitution and carrying out their civic duties!
LARRY J. SANDERS
Absolutely not. I am involved or have been involved in six interfaith organizations in our community, and all have learned how to deliver non-sectarian prayer. I am the current head of one county-wide organization that decided at its first meeting to skip prayer, even though in writing the agenda, from my interfaith background, I had automatically included "prayer."
BOB CONN
Forsyth County commissioners insisting on sectarian prayer to open their meetings and taking their case to the Supreme Court must disgust God when so many of his children in our community are poor, hungry and without adequate health care.
Seems a better use of funding to care for "the least of these" than to make a big fuss over the act of praying aloud. A moment of silence would be recognized by God and not offend anyone. I cannot help but wonder if those who voted to proceed to the Supreme Court are simply vying for attention in hopes of their re-election. I question their motives.
MARY ANNECELLI
I believe Jesus Christ said all that needs to be said. Quote: "Again, when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites, who love to pray standing in the synagogues and at the street corners, in order that they may be seen by men."
STEVE WINSTON
Honesty with the commissioners and their ability to work together is more important than paying lawyers so that they can pray at meetings. Say a silent prayer and get on with business.
ELIZABETH R. ERVIN
How ridiculous to spend time and money pursuing an outcome that is already available to everyone. If you want to pray, do it. Nobody will try to stop your private silent prayer. If it goes on too long, a bystander or bysitter might think you are in a trance, and haul you off to the ER. But that can be avoided by a little self control.
ANNE PAISLEY
Absolutely not. Why spend time and money on this while other issues are left unhandled? Some seem to tout their religiosity while overlooking the instructions that Jesus gave about prayer in Matthew 6:6.
NAOMI J. DAVIS
42 comments:
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Bob said...
- This post has been removed by the author.
- November
10, 2011 5:55 AM
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Bob said...
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Deb,it's not a flawed concept at all. All one has to do is know one's history
of the mixture of church and state, England, France, Russia, Spain, Iran,... to
realize it's an unholy alliance. 1947 Everson v Board of Education was NOT the
first time the idea was used in a "legal" definition: 1879 Reynolds v United
States. Besides the words "under God" in the pledge of allegiance was not added
until 1954 and In God We Trust" 1956. So your 1947 "argument" does not pass
muster. And even if it was 1947, so?
- November
10, 2011 5:58 AM
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Bob said...
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In God We Trust became the motto in 1956, it was added to coins in 1864, and
paper not until 1957. There's your original intent.
- November
10, 2011 6:04 AM
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Bob said...
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Was not E Pluribus Unum also original intent?
- November
10, 2011 6:32 AM
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Bob said...
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Joe Walsh is a bully and he blames it on coffee, right!!!!
- November
10, 2011 6:57 AM
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Bob said...
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Bucky, Joe Paterno wasn't pushed out, he was fired. Penn State and Joe
Paterno are no better than the Catholic Church and the pope.
- November
10, 2011 7:34 AM
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Bob said...
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It's sickening.
- November
10, 2011 7:35 AM
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Anonymous said...
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Hey Bucky, please see about having that anal sphincter they're developing at
Baptist implanted into your mouth. It'll help prevent the outflow of the stupid
$hit that typically dribbles from your mouth ...
- November
10, 2011 7:51 AM
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Bob said...
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Rick Perry: "I don't remember, oops."
- November
10, 2011 7:52 AM
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LaSombra said...
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One wonders if Bucky's bad end is jealous of the poop that comes out of his
mouth.
- November
10, 2011 10:16 AM
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O. T. Rush said...
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Deb gets her "facts" the same place Buckdump and other fools gets
theirs...out of thin air.
A few of Buckbottom's idiocies just from yesterday:
Joe Paterno, one of the greatest college football coaches of all time, has to retire because of a homosexual, pedophilic employee.
No, he has been fired because he did not do his job.
Their union vote will cause them to lose jobs…
And of course, he offers indisputable proof of this line parroted from Rush/Fox/Fool’s Network.
Rapes of men are now being reported at OWS protests.
There has been one uncorroborated report by one person of a rumor about a rape of a deaf man. She did not see the rape, nor has she even seen the supposed victim. Among sane, educated, people, that is considered to be just what it is, a rumor.
- November
10, 2011 11:06 AM
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Bob said...
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Bucky, facts? you say 6% males are gay, I can go with that
-However, they seem to find themselves in the middle of sex crimes incredibly often.
not a fact or statistic, only a conjecture, what is incredibly often mean?
-Joe Paterno, legendary, yes, but not pushed, fired along with the president of the university.
-"was pushed out of his job when it was learned that a homosexual, pedophilic employee, Jerry Sandusky, was discovered to have had sex with several little boys." False, not a fact at all. It was learned that Sandusky had sex with boys back in 1998 and Joe Pa learned in 2002, it was discovered years ago, this is 2011
-another adage, En boca cerrada no entran moscas.
- November
10, 2011 11:13 AM
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O. T. Rush said...
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Jeez, now, in addition to making stuff up, he's hallucinating. Ads?
- November
10, 2011 12:49 PM
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dotnet said...
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Good afternoon folks!
Sum it up: The concensus appears to be the CC's erred, with which I agree. Besides, I'm sure there's plenty of "Dear Lord, please don't let the commissioners do anything stupid" prayers said before the meeting as well as "Thank God this meeting is over" prayers said afterwards to suffice.
- November
10, 2011 1:50 PM
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O. T. Rush said...
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The CCs did a lot more than just err. They allowed a private group to
influence the decision to appeal by promising to pay the legal costs. It is
estimated that once the case is lost, the county will owe about $2 million. Good
luck on getting the private group to pay up. It will end up being we taxpayers
who pay.
Secondly, the CCs then allowed an outside private agency to actually handle the legal matters. This agency has a specific religious agenda that in no way represents the religious beliefs of the majority of Forsyth County residents and has no business meddling in county business, but the crybabies Whisenhunt and Conrad stampeded the others into pursuing this foolish quest.
All of this is almost certainly unconstitutionl. Maybe the ACLU will file another lawsuit on that matter and people will finally wise up and throw these fundamentalist idiots out of office.
- November
10, 2011 2:49 PM
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dotnet said...
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OT, I'm curious about the exact arrangement the county had with that group
that said it would pay the expenses. Was this just an oral agreement or was
there any sort of binding agreement? If that group reneges, can it be sued? I've
had a very strong feeling all along that the county will be the one paying out.
- November
10, 2011 3:03 PM
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O. T. Rush said...
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The case is being tried by lawyers from the Alliance Defense Fund, a national
organization. There is no charge for their services, but if the appeal actually
goes forward, and the county loses, the county would be liable for the costs
incurred by the ACLU, and the ADF would not pay for that.
That is where the N.C. Partnership for Religious Liberty (NCPRL) comes in. They are a regional group headed by Steve Corts, son of Calvary Baptist Church's legendary Mark Corts. They agreed to pay the ACLU's side of the bill. Conrad says that they have signed a contract, but it doesn't really matter, because if they don't pay up, a lawsuit would be fruitless. You cannot collect damages from someone who has no assets.
The good news is that the Supreme Court is highly unlikely to accept the case because they have already ruled on a similar case. In the end it is all about political posturing and playing to the fundamentalists.
What amuses me about this case is that it flies in the face of Jesus's warning about the phony Pharisees making a big to-do about praying in public. One would think that real christians would heed Jesus's word.
- November
10, 2011 3:42 PM
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Bob said...
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Bucky, leering happens at the beach, on the street, at church, in the grocery
store. If you don't want to be leered, then stay home. Sandusky is also married,
maybe he is bisexual. No matter what, he is a preditor and a monster and those
who allowed it to continue,ie Joe Paterno, are monsters too.
- November
10, 2011 4:05 PM
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Wordly said...
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In Bucky's defense, there is an ad WFU women's soccer at the top of this
page.
- November
10, 2011 4:15 PM
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Bob said...
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It's amazing that people will protect a predator in order to keep the good
name of "their" institution.
- November
10, 2011 4:15 PM
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Bob said...
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yes, it changes at time. My bad, it's not easy to copy the LTE's without a
subscription.
- November
10, 2011 4:16 PM
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O. T. Rush said...
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I took Buckram 90 words to say absoluteley nothing.
- November
10, 2011 4:18 PM
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Wordly said...
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I think there is a blogspot option to add some type of advertising. I don't
what advantage that is for the blogger. Possibly less disappearing post?
- November
10, 2011 4:34 PM
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Bob said...
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there probably is an advertising option and as far as I know the only person
who can make a post disappear is the poster.
- November
10, 2011 4:41 PM
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Bob said...
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I can delete an entire day, but not individual posts except my own which I do
occasionally.
- November
10, 2011 4:42 PM
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Bob said...
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:) I subscribed to the digital journal today, so it will be easier to post
the LTE's now.
- November
10, 2011 4:43 PM
- November
10, 2011 5:32 PM
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Bob said...
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The New Republican Mountain Bike: 1 forward gear and 26 reverses for back
peddling.
- November
10, 2011 5:32 PM
- November
10, 2011 5:37 PM
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Bob said...
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you never were a member, you will have to show me the long form to prove it.
- November
10, 2011 5:45 PM
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Bob said...
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I don't know what you mean, ever.
- November
10, 2011 5:46 PM
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O. T. Rush said...
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It's obvious that Buckler knows nothing about psychology, especially what we
used to call abnormal psych.
From the info so far, it is obvious that monster Sandusky was into preteen boys, so he wouldn't have had much interest in the Penn State football players. In fact, he might well have found older boys and men repellent. That's the way that mindset works.
Keep on revealing your ignorance, Bucklet. It's fascinating watching a supposed adult show his butt, sort of like the fascination of watching a train wreck that you can do nothing to stop.
- November
10, 2011 5:53 PM
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O. T. Rush said...
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I don't see any ads because I never see any ads anywhere. If you are using
Safari or Firefox or Chrome, just Google the name of your browser and "adblock",
install it, and you will see no more ads.
I doubt if there is one for Internet Explorer because it is about 10 years behind the times.
- November
10, 2011 5:55 PM
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Bob said...
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to quote a great republican philosopher: "oops"
- November
10, 2011 6:14 PM
