Haven't we seen a couple of these LTE's before?
The God of all
It's hard to believe anyone would not know what federal District Court Judge James A. Beaty Jr. meant by "prayer to a non-specific deity," as the writer of the letter "How to pray" (Aug. 7) claims. The ACLU has no problem with the words "God," "Lord," "Father," "Holy Spirit" and other terminology used over the centuries in thousands of prayers and hymns in the Christian religion and other religions. The statement by guest columnists Brett Harvey and Mike Johnson ("4th Circuit ruling for Forsyth County wrong," Aug. 8) that a non-specific prayer is "to whom it may concern" is so idiotic it's not worth refuting.
Why would ministers insist that terminology like "God," "Lord," "Father," "Holy Spirit," etc., often used alone in their church services, is not right for them as invocation in a Forsyth County commissioners meeting? Chaplains do not pray for themselves; they pray for the entire assembly. They can use the words Jesus used in his prayer: "Our Father ... ." Or the phrase with which President Obama closes his speeches, the one a Jew wrote in a little song called "God Bless America."
Perhaps some of our government and spiritual leaders should put aside publicity-seeking self-aggrandizement and invoke a prayer of St. Francis: "Lord, make me an instrument of your peace."
Then in their council meetings they can make a sorely needed (and legal) appeal to the God of all for reason, intelligence and good judgment.
PEGGY KING
Advance
Schools and hiring
Municipal governments appear to be slow learners. In response to our current economic difficulties, they have tried to deny teachers the right of collective bargaining, reduced their salaries and benefits, furloughed and fired teachers without regard to their effectiveness and attempted to abolish tenure. In addition, politicians have blamed teachers for a great variety of society's ills — from ignorance to obesity.
With hope, this economic crisis will end and governments will regain lost revenues and enable schools to hire or re-hire more teachers. To its surprise, governments will find very few smart, dedicated or caring candidates.
Given how poorly they have treated teachers in the current crisis, who would want to become a teacher? Who would accept the low pay, long hours, larger classes, poorly motivated students and greater responsibility in our society where everyone expects to get incomes rivaling those of Bill Gates, Donald Trump and the banking geniuses who caused this economic fiasco?
But do not worry, our politicians will blame the shortage of teachers on our colleges of education, and our grandchildren will get a less than adequate education. That, in turn, will accelerate our nation's slide into the ranks of the "under-developed" nations of the world. Yes, of course, those in power will blame our teachers for it all — as usual.
SHELDON HANFT
Boone
The First Amendment
The First Amendment to the Constitution clearly states, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Nothing could be more clear. Our Founding Fathers did not embed some secret code to be interpreted some other way.
I guess I am a simple person, but to me it is clear that "Congress" refers to the Congress of the United States, not some other legislative body or judges. But assuming it does, then you have the little word "no" to deal with. What secret code can this be?
Then in the second part of the sentence there is the little word "or" followed by "prohibiting the free exercise thereof." In my simple mind, this means that neither Congress, some other legislative body nor judges can prohibit the free exercise of a religion, and somehow this would seem to include prayer.
How can this possibly be interpreted not to allow prayer before any group, especially a legislative group, that needs it more than ever these days?
Patricia Stockmeister ("Scorecard," Aug. 6) suggests that the Forsyth County commissioners are forcing their will on Forsyth County and embarrassing residents, and further suggests that the majority disagree with them. What majority? Based on all that I have ever seen, the vast majority of Americans claim to be Christians, and Jesus asks us to pray in his name.
Thanks to the commissioners for continuing this appeal to the Supreme Court so justice and our faith can be preserved.
TOM SANDERS JR.
Winston-Salem
LTE1: The appeal is a waste of time and money, showboating and cheerleading. And no, I am not anti-religious: I attend two different churches on Sunday, and sing (poorly) in one of the churches' choirs.
ReplyDeleteLTE2: Yes, teachers have been shabbily. However, I turn a deaf ear to the comment re collective bargaining. Taxpayers do not have seats at the table in negotiating with public sector unions, as the unions buy the very pols with whom they negotiate. And, I don't want my tax dollars going for dues that go to a particular political party, which happens to fervently support public sector unions.
LTE3: See comments re LTE1.
The First Amendment LTE: "How can this possibly be interpreted not to allow prayer before any group, especially a legislative group, that needs it more than ever these days?"
ReplyDeleteI say EASY. The Founding Fathers took a Federal Hands Off position to the issue of Religion - it was clearly to be a "local" issue, which could be a town council or a state legislature or even ... doesn't Congress open each session with a prayer?
nay .. I say this is a political divide issue. If you are a God fearing, you must be Republican, If you oppose public prayer you must be a a Dam-o-crat.
Are we are a people really so shallow? Hell yes.
"Taxpayers do not have seats at the table in negotiating with public sector unions .... "
ReplyDeleteSure they do Stab ... the school board is an Elected Body. Of course they will be reinstated more on their position re: Public Religion than a fine ability to regulate let alone negotiate.
" ... as the unions buy the very pols with whom they negotiate."
ReplyDeleteClearly unions are the only ones with the power to "buy the very pols with whom they negotiate."
LEFT OVERS: WW et. al. Thanks for the kind words ... so busy right now I can't even blog!
ReplyDelete--
Yes, "The 11th Circuit Court just declared the individual mandate part of the ACA unconstitutional" ... and I think I both understand and generally agree with their reasoning ... BUT ... no one .. and I mean NO ONE (besides myself) has a viable solution for the problem of Funding Health Care ...
.... and the "Obamacare is an Obamination" chant is just more partisan divide and conquer ... one can tell who listens to Hate Radio.
Entire first amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America:
ReplyDeleteCongress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Many proponents of public prayer in Christ Jesus' name point out that the admendment only restricts congress from favoring a religion not other government bodies.
Question:
If the admendment only prohibits congress from establishing a religion, then by the same logic can our local elected officials curtail our freedom of the press? They are not congress. They could ban this blog and the Winston Salem Journal for that matter.
Matthew 6:6 King James version:
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
The peace of Christ be with all of you today and forever.
If the first part of the amendment applies, thens so shall this part.....
ReplyDelete'or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;'
Somehow these knotheaded liberals seem to think that they get to cherry pick the parts of the constitution that fit their desires and needs. Sorry, it doesn't work that way knotheads.
I'm not entirely sure that the appeal is a waste of time. Bashing Christians is fashionable now, but I think that'll change. Afterall, the basic principles of the bible in terms of how one should live one's life, is, without question, a positive influence on many people's lives and society as a whole.
What does it really hurt to ask the Supreme Court if it's constitutional?
Another disgusting part of this story is that the county attorney, Davida Martin, refused to pursue the issue through the courts. Why, because she said it's unconstitutional. So all of sudden we've got some light weight lawyer from a little county in North Carolina that thinks she a Supreme Court Justice, and she refuses to do her job. I say throw the 'bimbo' out. That's not her job. She gets to give legal advice, not make the final decision on a county action.
JD....it's good to hear you are busy. I hope it stays that way for you.
ReplyDeleteLTE-2...seems to be wandering and blaming. There should be no collective bargaining in public education. Neither should there be tenure at any level, even at the college level. Yes, teachers get blamed for a lot but that has more to do with parents projecting than anything else. Every profession gets its share of blame for something at some time. It is possible that there will be a shortage of willing teachers in the near future. Do all new teachers have to be young? Maybe some retired seniors will take up teaching especially from grades 6-12. Depending on what is left of our society in a few years when this economic collapse begins to recover, these folks might be a resource. Speaking for me, what ever a starting salary is will be fine and the State can keep the retirement, medical,vacation etc benefits. Don't need any teachers organizations or the like either. There will also be the added benefit of telling a principle, school board member or chairman etc what he needs to be told regardless of whether he likes it or not. Just some thoughts.
ReplyDeleteIf you've ever wondered why CNN has taken a nose dive in the ratings. Take a look at the whining Don Lemon in this clip and you'll know why.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2011/08/12/lemon.shoved.bachmann.cnn?hpt=hp_t2
It's clear the liberal media is trying to smear Bachmann just like they did Palin. If you're not some hairy back lesbian female, and a democrat, the liberal media won't support you.
Bucky....the CNNs of the world and their ilk are witnessing their world collapse around them. Next to a hanging, nothing focuses the mind like a financial collapse.
ReplyDeleteAmen....to that.
ReplyDeleteGov. Rich Perry has just announced his candidacy for the presidency of the United States. He strikes me as being the type that would hook a pair of bulls' balls to the back of his campaign bus, just to tick off the liberal media. I wish him well.
ReplyDeleteI guess my dearly beloved brother Bucky Ducky Lucky hath been wandering in yon wilderness lo these past forty years, because he hathe already missed all the excitement.
ReplyDeleteThe 1983 Supreme Court case Marsh v Chambers and subsequent decisions have laid out clearly what the rules for prayer at government meetings are. They are exactly the same as the recent finding of the Circuit Court. So the Supreme Court will not hear the appeal.
All that the County Commissioners have accomplished with their foolishness is to increase the amount of the legal bill which will be presented by the ACLU at the end of the case. The local christian group that agreed to pay that bill did not sign any kind of agreement and only agreed to pay $300,000. The bill will more likely be in the $2 million area, so we taxpayers will end up paying for Conrad and Whisenhunt's crybaby antics.
O.T.: I think the Journal has you on auto-censor. Would you mind re-posting your reply here, if possible?
ReplyDeleteWasn't much to it:
ReplyDeleteWasting your time arguing with Bo. He isn't really interested in the law...all he wants is the freedom to force his superstitions on you, me and everyone else at every turning.
That's it. I could go on to say that Bo is supposedly a lawyer, but I certainly would never hire him. He either pretends not to know or simply does not know the fundamentals of Constitutional law. Maybe, since he has no respect for the court system, he should turn in his law license and become a street preacher.
Thanks.
ReplyDeleteRush/Kit....thank you Supreme Court Justice. Even if that was the law back then, the Supremes can over rule their prior decision. Pinhead.......
ReplyDeleteAnd by the way Arthur, in regard to your post in the Journal re: the U.S. Constitution, I've never heard you whining because white males are being discriminated against daily because of affirmative action. You're a typical liberal, cherry picking the parts of the Constitution that you like.
Have you heard Obama's latest? Now he's blaming the U.S. Congress for his troubles. Will he ever grow up?
ReplyDeleteBucky Ducky Lucky me boy...once upon a time there was a boxer named Cassius Clay. At a certain point he changed his name to Muhammad Ali. Under either name he was one of the greatest boxers ever. He was also pretty smart and so amused boxing fans with his poems and other thoughts.
ReplyDeleteAt one point, he introduced a whole new style of boxing, which he dubbed rope-a-dope. There is no doubt in my mind that he was thinking of you when he invented that name.
As to the supremes changing the ruling in the prayer case, I want you to take a deep breath and hold it. Don't let it out until the supremes change that ruling. Thank you for following directions.
As for your problem with affirmative action, we DID try once to create an affirmative action program for ignorant white men like you, but it didn't work, because employers refused to hire ignorant people...not mention anyone named Bucky, Knothead, Chucklehead or LG.
It's too bad nobody gives Herman Cain any play as a potential Republican presidential candidate. I think he's got some good idea.
ReplyDeleteHow many idea is some good idea? Probably ought to have at least two if you're going to run for president. I doubt if any of the Republican "candidates" other than Romney is capable of remembering two idea in the same month.
ReplyDelete"So it's interesting to see him pledging a constitutional amendment against gay marriage, just a month after backing away from the anti-gay crowd." Reference Romney's position on gay marriage, The Village Voice published Aug. 2011.
ReplyDeleteI'll bet that'll get your 'go go' in a wad.
Polls are already projecting that N.C. will go Republican in the next presidential election. If that happens, Gov. Perdue (D) will be following Obama out the door. It will be a beautiful day.
ReplyDeleteMy go go is made out of stretch cat fur, so doesn't do wads.
ReplyDeleteInteresting to see the last reasonable GOP candidate surrender to the lunatic fringe christian right hatemonger racist nutcases. I guess the Republican Party is dead. Long live the Republican Party.
Iowans said no to the perverted and sexually deviant world of gay and lesbians today, and voted for Michele Bachmann for their candidate for the Republican nomination to the presidency. I'll bet Don Lemon of CNN is crying in his pink panties.
ReplyDeleteAn African-American, Nutter noted that those involved in the Philadelphia attacks are predominantly black and said their behavior damaged themselves and their race.
ReplyDeleteWhat Nutter is leaving out is the fact that the victims of the attacks are primarily 'white'. Don't look for any hate crime charges though. After all, we are living in a politically correct world. Blacks can't hate, only white people.
Actually, Bucking Bucky, Obama supporters are standing on their chairs and cheering, because a vote for Bachmann in the primaries is a vote for O in November, 2012.
ReplyDeleteFor instance, NC will be a key state come next November. The legitimate polls (we're not talking your loony toons Civitas here) show O leading Romney in NC by only 3 points, but his lead over Bachmann is 10, and over Sarah "One if by land, two if by sea" Palin, a whopping 12.
Personally, I favor Bachmann, because once she has to face the public daily, her stupidity will be fully revealed. I plan to vote for her in the Republican primary next spring.
If she actually gets the GOP nomination, then in November, 2012, voters will be faced with two realistic choices. They can vote status quo or they can put on their "I'm with stupid" T (party) shirts and reveal their own stupidity. In some states, the Libertarian Party candidate will probably finish ahead of her.
I'm not all that thrilled with O, but if we are going to continue to have a two party system, which seems inevitable, the current loony Republican Party needs to die and be reborn without the christian nutcakes.
I realize that all of this goes right over your extremely low altitude head, but there is nothing that I can say that wouldn't.
Anybody that is even remotely sane will not vote for Obama in the next election. Banging bucks can and will bang without a marriage license. Even banging bucks need money. If Obama stays in, we'll have none.
ReplyDeleteJust saw on my homepage the caption "Joy Behar ties the knot". It didn't mention a noose.
ReplyDeleteGood evening, folks! Busy today, doing some remodeling for Mrs. Stab, then getting outside for a while, then took in the sights and sounds of downtown for a bit. But not all: O.T., where is Ziggy's?
ReplyDeleteCatching up on the day's conversation . . .
JD, public employee unions and pols have a quid pro quo relationship with those who are supposed to negotiate in taxpayers' interests. Thus taxpayers have no seat at the bargaining table. Yes, similar situations may exist elsewhere, but the letter was defending the notion of unionized teachers, which is shown in other states to be a bad idea.
Wordly: Grace, Mercy, and Peace be unto you.
O. T.: like Arthur, I cannot see your posts in the "Journal's" Readers' Forum. If convenient, if you could post them in the Letters forum here, most of us would appreciate. Coincidentally, I cannot see the comments of your frequent opponent, Bo Houff, either.
O. T. re your comments to the aforementioned Bo Houff, the nature of time and space is so much more complex than we can perceive, that to rule out higher planes of existence appears to me to be a bit hasty. The arcane realm of quantum mechanics, thoroughly tested and unfailing, borders on philosophy, and allows the existence of information contained in our brains/minds even after death. I'll spare the details now.
WW: what is the name of the deaf man who married Miss Behar?
Gov. Perry announced his candidacy today, said he will work to make DC as inconsequential in our lives as possible. Shades of Mitch McConnell, who after the 2010 elections, said the Republicans' first mission is to boot President Obama in 2012, ignoring the glaring problems of 2010 and 2011. "Getting government off our backs" is low on the voters' priority list at the moment.
ReplyDeleteMost of us want government intervention in one form or another. In my case, I want the government to make it more difficult for unions to obtain dues-paying members. Elsewhere, Republican NC legislators used their power as government officials to stretch out the abortion process. Most of us are quite happy when a rickety bridge replaced or a new section of Interstate opened.
And most voters find Big Unemployment vastly more scary than Big Government. Perry is way wide of the mark.
O.T. spoke of Bachmann's success in IA, and the demise of the R party. That might have been said of the Dem party after McGovern, and would be said of the Dem party of President Obama if the R's weren't so dreadfully incompetent at politics.
I wouldn't mind seeing the R party dwindle, to be the bastion of fundamentalists, while the Dem party openly became the Labor Union party, leaving moderates from both parties to form a Centrist party. It will not happen, but it's close to bedtime, so I can dream.
Ziggy's is on the northeast corner of Trade and Martin Luther King. It is a little confusing, because west of Trade MLK becomes Eighth Street. Also, the last time I walked by there, there was no real sign up yet.
ReplyDeleteAs to the visibility of posts on the Journal's website, I am baffled. My posts come and go...some stick around permanently, while others are around for a few minutes or an hour or two, then vanish. It doesn't seem to matter whether I post from a computer at the office or at home.
I have noticed that other posters, Bo included, seem to have the same problem, while others do not. My top tech guy says that the fact that the number of comments is always incorrect indicates that the Journal folks don't know what they are doing and do not have things worked out yet.
It doesn't really matter to me, because the site is not nearly as interesting nowadays. The same people post the same thing day after day. The Journal has succeeded in making the posts more civil, but there is very little interaction between posters.
I did note a very ugly racist post this morning by someone called James Firemage.