Bucky, OT, and I had the following late evening exchanges, which are a diversion from the usual topics of late. It's been a while since affirmative action was on the table.
Bucky said...
A recent study found that a black male with the same grades and SAT scores as a white male, had a 527% higher probability of getting into the University of Wisconsin as an undergrad than the white male.
Yet the same people that cry discrimination on the gay and lesbian marriage issue, say nothing regarding affirmative action discriminatory practices.
Staballoy said...
Also, what percentage advantage did a black guy have at UW in 1961? I suspect the number was neither 527 nor positive. Why? Because those white kids were getting in because their daddies were alums, big booster contributors, or friends of alums or contributors. What is that kind of greasing the skids called? It's called "an old boy network," aka Affirmative Action.
I didn't understand your point, except to slip in a bit of latent racism. Accepting that gays and lesbians should be able to marry is not affirmative action. It's according the same rights to them. It's not affirmative action that I can marry Mrs. Stab, not is it that Adam should be able to marry Steve, or Alice to marry Eve.
O. T. Rush said... Bucky said...
And they do not necessarily advocate LEGALIZATION of all drugs...primarily they want DECRIMINALIZATION of marijuana and cocaine which represent the vast majority of people in our prisons which costs us a fortune in taxes.
And because there is no serious attempt by our system to help addicts get clean, the same people rotate in and out of prison over and over, paid for by our tax money.
Being AGAINST something is stupid unless you are willing to DO something constructive about it.
"Liberal conservative" Is that like hot cold, or dry wet? Wishy washy?
ReplyDeleteBucky re drugs: you undermine your argument by noting that the increase in drug-related fatalities is attributed to the misuse of LEGAL prescription drugs. Arguing against legalization of pot and coke doesn't address your own concern.
As for pot and coke, I suspect they have pretty well saturated their market. I doubt usage would increase to any significant extant were they legalized. Pot and coke stores (Pot Luck, Things Go Better with Coke?) could be opened in the shopping center 2 blocks from my home. I wouldn't buy their products.
I note that OT said decriminalize rather than legalize. I diverge. Legalize the stuff, tax it.
"Extant" in para 2 above should be "extent."
ReplyDeleteBucky, who has clearly never filled out a college application, doesn't realize that one must complete what amounts to a family tree filled with all kinds of educational details for parents, etc. Particularly in private schools, but historically in public schools as well, this section is v-e-r-y important.
ReplyDeleteAffirmative action programs are not about today, they are about the future. How else do we start to create a level playing field to counteract our very real and very recent VERY discrimatory education programs?
Maybe someday, long after we're all gone, all people, all races will be able to equally compete for the same seats at universities. Right now, we're a long way from there.
Heck, I still have family members who call UNCG "Women's College."
ReplyDeleteMy mother always referred to UNC-G as "WC," didn't mean anything by it, just set in her ways.
ReplyDeleteMrs WW went to WC the first year it became UNC-G. 5 males descended upon that great mass of young ladies....and make up became the order of the day.
ReplyDeleteSharon:
ReplyDeleteAffirmative action will remain about the future as long as people like Bucky continue to promote xenophobia.
I agree, it's a harmless "set in the ways" issue, I awkwardly used it to illustrate it wasn't that long ago that we needed a "Women's College" because women weren't allowed in "regular college". (Vs. men's college".)
ReplyDeleteImagine a bright young person like Miss Stepstab not being able to apply to any college she wanted to attend. Unthinkable, really.
As a sidebar, my neighbor attended one of the "seven sisters", Wheaton College, (private) which has a curriculum taught uniquely from the perspective of women. One evening, as we were relaxed with buckets of sangria, we talked about the value and relevance of teaching from the "women's perspective"... my husband posed some challenging questions, and honestly, after hearing her talk about it, Jas and I will encourage my nieces to explore this college and consider it for themselves. Fascinating.
UNC-G opened in 1892 as the State Normal & Industrial School at a time when few colleges admitted women. The driving force behind the school and founding president was Charles Duncan McIver, who had recently been the principal of the Winston (later West End) Graded school on Fourth Street where the old Sears building now stands.
ReplyDeleteMcIver was a social radical who believed that women deserved an education equal to that offered in Chapel Hill. He told the girls that if they stayed and got a degree, they could then set their sights on any career currently open to men.
The school attracted the best and brightest of our young women, who were amused by the name of the school, so liked to say "We go to Normal, so we're normal."
After a couple of other name changes, the school became the Women's College of the University of North Carolina in 1932. We always called it "WC", as in "Got a date over at WC." Almost all of the old grads that I know call it that as well.
For women, college options have exploded in the recent past. When Mrs WW went to UNC-G, 1964-1968, there were basically 3 major choices for female students:
ReplyDeleteNursing degree, teaching degree, Mrs degree.
Other options were available, like PE major, and even fewer for others. Mrs WW was literally in a handful of females in the economics and business major. Back then, "nice girls" stuck to the first 3 I mentioned.
Wheaton is on Miss Stepstab's radar, also, because of its Christian liberal arts basis. Her mom and I encourage her to look at several schools. Miss Sstab can go to WFU with a healthy discount, as her dad is on the Med School faculty (PhD). She would rather go out of town, is a bit tired of the strains of dealing with 2 households. Her mom and I don't blame her.
ReplyDeleteGood morning all.
ReplyDeleteI could be wrong about this, but I think JHU only started admitting women in 1970. Amazing how far we've come in 40 years.
And I still call WFU Med School Bowman Gray. The ironic title makes the place more interesting, IMO. And besides, the Grays have done a lot for Winston.
Arthur, we still call the whole thing Baptist as everybody did way back when. Just habitual short hand I guess.
ReplyDeleteAnd legalizing (and taxing) weed is just a no-brainer, I'm sorry.
ReplyDeleteI just wonder: What's the diff btwn "legalizing" and "decriminalizing" marijuana? Would it have to be DECRIMINALIZED first in order to LEGALIZE it, or vice versa?
ReplyDeleteI should say that I favor legalization for the reasons stated by others, but suspect that we will have to go through decriminalization first to mollify those who have demonized marijuana and cocaine.
ReplyDeleteThe worst drug is, of course, alcohol, which is directly involved in about 100,000 deaths annually, and indirectly in many more. I guess we should make alcohol illegal too...oh, wait, we already tried that.
Decriminalizing makes drug possession an infraction, thus eliminating prison as an option.
ReplyDeleteRe Sharon's comments on women's colleges:
ReplyDeleteThere are still a few excellent women's colleges around. Our own Salem Academy & College is the oldest in the country and offers an excellent environment for bright young women. One of the best is Mount Holyoke in Massachusetts. Some of the smartest and most successful of my female friends are Holyoke grads. Any bright young woman hoping to maximize her education should visit Holyoke, Barnard, Smith and Bryn Mawr
At the time of the founding of UNC-G, women in this area had few college choices. Trinity (later Duke) and Guilford College were among the few coed schools. Otherwise, women had a choice of Meredith College, which had just opened in Raleigh, Salem, and Hollins and Sullins in southwestern Virginia.
Also, there are two Wheaton Colleges, both highly regarded.
ReplyDeleteThe one in Illinois is evangelistic Christian.
The one in Massachusetts is the one that Sharon is referring to, originally founded as a female seminary. It went coed in 1988. It was not a member of the Seven Sisters group, but is in the same league with them at the top of the table.
The Seven Sisters, BTW, are now only five, Radcliffe having merged with Harvard and Vassar having gone co-ed. I guess they are the Five Sisters now: Mt. Holyoke, Wellesley, Smith, Bryn Mawr and Barnard.
I sit corrected/clarified re the two Wheatons.
ReplyDeleteSounds like both Wheatons would suit my stepdaughter. Both her Mom and I want her to be a strong woman and independent-minded. So far, Miss Sstab is charting her own course, outside the materialistic conformity of her high school environment.
Lucky parents. It takes a smart, strong teenager to chart her own course.
ReplyDeleteHigh school students are pressured by teachers, family and peers to go to this school or that for all the wrong reasons.
We told our sons that they needed to visit as many schools as possible, then choose based on where they felt most comfortable. They chose wildly different places, neither of which I would have chosen, but in each case it turned out to be almost as if the school had been designed just for them.
Happy young men and now successful in wildly different fields. I guess our parental karma was good, because we had no idea how to rear children. Blind luck?
Sharon....is a classic liberal. Somehow she thinks we can quantify the amount of racism that African Americans suffered during our relevative recent history, and that somehow we can use affirmative action to provide retribution and, therefore, level the playing field for that racism.
ReplyDeleteThat logic is so child-like that it really belongs in a buffonery think-tank.
If discrimination is against the U.S. Constitution based on race and sex, how can ANY discrimination be legal involving those two categories-even under the guise of Affirmative Action?
La Sombra....why don't we use our planes, trains, buses, and ships to bring everybody in the world that wants to come to U.S. here?
ReplyDeleteNobody is afraid of immigration. What people are afraid of is uncontrolled immigration.
You're another classic liberal name caller.
If you can't win an argument based on the facts, you start calling people names. You are, in fact, a liberal hater, particularly when people don't agree with your beliefs.
How does it feel to hate people? That must be miserable.
Daddy, stop being a crybaby. You're always slapping me around for doing that - now here you go being one too.
ReplyDeleteI did some more research and found out that what Sharon said is true, so you're wrong again. Mommy said she hopes you'll get your comeuppance, whatever that is.
Knothead, Jr.
Bucky, Sharon is a classic beauty, but not a classic liberal. For one thing, she's a bit wary of liberals' darling organized labor.
ReplyDeleteAlso, the playing field remains unlevel because African-Americans lack the army of well-heeled parents, friends of well-heeled parents, frat/sorority siblings, country club associations, etc., that allow extra (and frequently inaccessible to most) entree into the business, academic, and professional arenas.
OT noted that for all your protesting a black male's advantage over an equivalent white male for matriculation into UW, those allegedly privileged black males make up only 3% of the student population, and many of those are on athletic scholarships.
In 2000, African-Americans made up 6.15% of WI's population. Divide that 6.15% by 2, to account for black females, and what do you have? About 3%. What a coincidence.
Hey Charter member of the Nitwit Club...Rush/Kitty Kat/Anonymous/Nitwit/Idiot....no need to hide, we all know who you are .
ReplyDeleteI'm not crying, I'm stating the facts.
Stab...they are still utilizing racial discrimination in order to give preference to black males over white males, it doesn't matter what the percentage is. That's against the law no matter how you read the U.S. Constitution.
ReplyDeleteYou know, sometimes you remind me of Cindy Anthony defending her daughter, and sadly you make about as much sense.
Hey Bucky,
ReplyDeleteI never said we can quantify racism.
I won't spend my time detailing how discrimination against black men starts long before the college application stage. I won't spend my time talking about how our primary and secondary educational systems have historically been based on an anglo-european value and information set. I won't spend my time talking about how the entire college preparatory phase, even the SATs, naturally favor the white man.
I won't spend my time commending OTRush's and Staballoy's excellent statistics about racial makeup of student populations. (Although they are great comments, guys!)
I will, instead, write two things:
1) If a white man wants to go to college, he may not get into Harvard or Duke, but he WILL get in somewhere. There are plenty of available seats at universities all over the country. If he doesn't want to move, he can go to University of Phoenix.
2) If you want to hear agreement that racial discrimination exists, then ok. I agree that racial profiling for purposes of educational admittance is a kind of discrimination. There you go. But guess what? If it finally allows African American men and women to achieve, earn, and contribute in ways their own grandmothers could never have, then I'm personally willing to tolerate the discrimination.
Hi Sharon!
ReplyDeleteBucky, here's a bit more:
I believe the courts have found one way or another about affirmative action, particularly in the case of state supported schools. If UW is looking with more favor on the black guy v. the white guy, you can bet the courts are OK with it by now. So, you might want to take it up with the courts re the US Constitution.
And we really haven't heard many folks fussing about this gross discrimination in Badger country. Kinda hard to show a pattern of discrimination when the percentage of black males matriculating is the same as the percentage of black males in the state.
While we're at it, how about furnishing a link to the 527% figure?
I'll furnish a few figures for you: we first accepted slaves in the colony of VA in 1619. The last slave was freed in 1865, or so it is claimed. That is 246 years of slavery on our soil. That is longer than we have been an independent nation. The Constitution you cite in claiming discrimination accepted slavery, albeit in a vague way.
After the slaves were freed, they were denied access to many of the opportunities afforded whites, such as educations, housing of their choice, fair trials, fair pay, the fronts of buses, seats at lunch counters. They were given access to ropes hanging from lampposts, burning crosses, whippings.
Can you name some modern countries that underpaid large segments of their populations, denied access to opportunities afforded other citizens, and stripped of basic rights? I can: the Soviet Union and the Republic of South Africa.
Mind you, it isn't all perfect: we've been given riots, high crime rates, rap music, and Jackson, Sharpton, and Waters and the rest of the CBC. But, the playing field still isn't level. I don't begrudge that black guy a bit of an edge at UW, if there really is one.
Hey guys,
ReplyDeleteSorry I thought my neighbor said it was 7 sisters, but her sis went to Vassar so maybe that's what she was talking about...
But she did go to Wheaton College in Mass. She's insanely cool, smart and has an awesome career... and you have most likely seen her work, but I don't want to out her on this forum!
I'll give you a hint: she's the one who told me Sarah Palin has a massive head and is dumber than a shoe. And lest you think she's a DNC member, my neighbor voted for McCain!
Anyway, she had a lot of great things to say about Wheaton College, and I've learned a lot from her!
I can't wait to hear more about Miss StepStab's college decision process! A college somewhere will be very lucky to get such a motivated and thoughtful young lady.
Hello again, Sharon.
ReplyDeleteActually, Miss Stepstab announced this evening that she is going to apply for early admission at WFU. She can get a fine education there. Her dad is on the med school faculty (PhD), so she gets a not inconsiderable discount, which leaves financial flexibility for grad school. It also saves a lot of stress on her part for her senior HS year, as she can dispense with multiple applications. She will be accepted, no problem there. We are pleased for her, proud of her.
Oh, and thank you for the kind words re Miss Stepstab, Sharon. She deserves them, but they are gracious nonetheless. Thanks!
ReplyDeletePlease allow me to add yet another country to Stab's list: China. And there are quite a few others. And this:
ReplyDeleteAs always, the Cave Man Party shows a lack of knowledge of American history, particularly in the area of the US Constitution.
The Founding Fathers that the throwbacks so love to quote were way ahead of today's ignorati. They not only tried to insulate individual freedom from the ignorance of the mob by creating a republican form of government, but they also very carefully crafted a court system that would allow the Constitution to grow with the new nation.
Thus, US Supreme Court decisions are designed to become a living part of the Constitution. So when the ignorati quote the Constitution, or more often, state what is NOT in the Constitution, they merely reveal their own pathetic ignorance. In other words, it the Supremes SAY it is Constitutional, it IS.
Affirmative action was created by the civil rights acts of the 1960s. That made it a part of Federal law. Right away, the frightened bigots declared war...we can't have black people competing with us for education and jobs because we are stupid and lazy and they will whip our butts.
That hasn't really happened...it has mostly affected the dumbest and the laziest whites, who had been getting a free pass for centuries.
Whatever, in 2003, in the case Grutter v. Bollinger, which involved the University of Michigan law school, the Supremes affirmed affirmative action for time to come, making it a part of the US Constitution.
Constitutional experts expect this ruling to remain in effect until it is no longer needed. In other words, the Supremes will not accept any more cases on this subject.
As for you frightened, angry old white men, you can always start your own racially pure and poor country. The Israelis did it...so can you.
Did anyone see that catch in the end zone a minute ago?
ReplyDeleteRe college choices. Ironic that Ms StepStab has chosen Wake Forest, as did one of my sons. If I had ever considered imposing my will by veto, that was the moment. Wake would have been my last choice. He knew that, and he knew why, but I kept quiet, and after a couple of months on campus, he walked into my office one day and sat down.
ReplyDelete"You can relax," he said. "You were right,"but you were also wrong. Yes, the Greek group is a force on campus, but they come to class and sit politely in the back of the room and then go back to their houses and we don't see them any more unless they are running for a campus office. Then, those of us who came to get a real education have almost unlimited access to fabulous faculty members and all the latest technology to boot."
Apparently, he had just submitted an essay to his professor from the bathroom of his dorm suite. And he had befriended a football player, an offensive lineman no less, who was majoring in English lit...does that really happen?
He entered college thinking that he would major in computer science, but today he is working on a PhD in an esoteric major far removed from computers that most people have never heard of.
I know that I would have been miserable at WFU. Was I wrong in thinking that that would apply to him as well? Yep. Thank goodness I kept my mouth shut. If the school fits, wear it.
End Zone? Is that a new sequel to the Twilight Zone? If so, I might have to get a TV.
ReplyDeleteNo, I cut away from the game at 10:00 to watch the news. Darn.
ReplyDeleteOT...as I recall it, jocks in the football program always majored in "business administration".
ReplyDeleteThat's what I thought, too. English lit? I think this guy was eventually an All ACC honorable mention AND made honorable mention Academic All American. What is the world coming to?
ReplyDeleteWW, you need one of those new fangled color sets...I hear they have something called picture-in-picture wherein you can watch two things at once. My neighbor has one where supposedly you can watch three at once, or so she says.
ReplyDeleteOf course, most of the time that means that 3 times zero still equals zero, but there ARE moments.
What indeed! The guy probably spoke like Percy Bysshe Shelley in the huddle maybe. Freaked out his team mates.
ReplyDeleteWhatever, in 2003, in the case Grutter v. Bollinger, which involved the University of Michigan law school, the Supremes affirmed affirmative action for time to come, making it a part of the US Constitution.
ReplyDeleteRush/Kitty Kat/Anonymous
The forum nitwit strikes again. Case law is NOT incorporated into the U.S. Constitution even when made or ruled upon by the SCOTUS. That statement is factually incorrect.
OT, I have seen those tvs in the store. If I got one so I could watch 2 programs, Mrs WW would get mad at me as she gets ill when I switch channels on Sunday afternoon between games. Something about "make up your mind dammit". I don't understand.
ReplyDeleteI hear that after a very quick look-see in the NFL, he wound up teaching HS English and coaching the football team. Salt of the earth.
ReplyDeleteMost don't know it, but the best HS soccer coach here for many years was also an outstanding English teacher also.
The soccer coach stuff is my judgment; the teaching thing comes right out of the mouth of his principal.
The end zone was roughly equivalent to the "Twilight Zone" last week for the Steelers, better this week.
ReplyDeleteA New York Giant receiver made a desperate juggling catch on his back in the end zone for a touchdown, very skillful.
OT, in what discipline is your son working for his PhD?
I don't use picture-in-picture, but if I had time to follow the NFL on SU afternoons, I might, but not this year, except on a bad weather PM, should one come occur.
WW, what do women know about Sunday afternoon in the fall? On the other hand, it usually behooves to follow their guidance.
ReplyDeleteBucky, the Supremes' decisions become the law of the land, and if the Supremes no longer hear challenges, those decisions carry as much weight as if they are chiseled into the Constitution, IMO.
ReplyDeleteOT, weekend PM's are for women in the fall and the other 3 seasons, but in the fall, Sunday and Monday nights are mine. Mrs. Stab says so.
ReplyDeleteStab - I have noted over the years that great quarterbacks all have one thing in common...great receivers capable of making desperate juggling catches on their backs in the end zone or elsewhere.
ReplyDeleteMy choice for greatest ever QB is Johnny Unitas, but where would he have been without Raymond Berry, the slow, gimpy genius of the end zone, the red zone and the life zone?
OT...she and I work it out. I tell her I switch back and forth between games because one is on cbs and the other on fox..channel 9 and 10. Logically, it is meant for me to do that. She reads her book or decorating magazine which means it will cost me come Monday.
ReplyDeleteNighty night, folks. The ballgame will need to take care of itself. Sleep well, all, including those who take short naps :)
ReplyDeleteJohnny U was also my favorite. Number 19.
ReplyDeleteNight Stab
ReplyDeleteAs to the Constitution business, there are challenges rising as we meet here in the luxurious surroundings of the Nitwits Niche, but the court will not hear any of them. Grutter v. Bollinger made that clear.
ReplyDeleteSince Buckwheat gets all his education from Google, he out to Google "constitutional law", then select the Wikipedia entry, not "The Blaze". He might actually learn something, but don't hold your breath.
WW - LOL...you surely you don't expect your Sunday football orgies to be free. Forget the commercials. That Monday shopping orgy is just compensation.
ReplyDeleteOT...tell me about it! When she leaves with the check book too, I know it's serious.
ReplyDeleteThere is no free lunch. Nor is there free football.
ReplyDeleteHey nitwit.....what about all of the case law(s) that the Supremes ruled on in the 1800s? Are they still written in the U.S. Constitution and are they part of case law today?
ReplyDeleteAgain, you made a boneheaded statement.
That doesn't stop Club Nitwit from chirping away though. Hee Hee...you gotta love it.